What is a reasonable price for Harrisons? I've seen so many different prices...I don't know what's normal. My vet charges out the arse for Harrisons (online much more reasonable).

I found good (I think?) prices at the link that LH introduced us to ( http://www.forthebirdsdvm.com/birdfood1.htm )

My flock has always been on fruity pellets. I've really been wanting to introduce them to Harison's. But, I always buy my pellets in bulk (20 lbs at a time...ususally lasts 2 months or so). Will Harrisons 25 lb bag last for up to 2 months + or does it expire fast? The above link has 25 lb bags of Adult Lifetime for $98 and that includes shipping--seems like a good price. (And extremely ecconomical when the 5 lb bags cost $30).

Also, will my flock eat less of Harrisons (premium food) than they do of their current pellets (Zupreem)? I've heard that this is true for dog food (Purina vs. Eagle Pack or Wellness for example) but I'm curious if this holds true for parrots as well. (I'm trying to consider pricing and whether or not I'll be able to maintain them on Harrisons/how fast they'll go thru it).

Thanks in advance.

I believe banned has recommended that as soon as your package arrives, portion it into Ziplock bags and freeze it immediately (but double check with her, as I may not be recalling correctly or completely). I would add that if some will be in the freezer longer than a few weeks, that you double bag it to prevent dehydration. That's what we do when we are given dead birds, etc. to add to our study collections and we can't prepare them right away.

We also feed harrison's and recommend it highly. All our birds are on coarse regular maintenance. Some days they fling it and on those days we feed fine. 5lbs normally lasts our flock about 4 weeks. We offer more than their bag suggests. Some of it is wasted, but providing a steady food supply seems to keep our birds happier, healthier and makes Charlie a little less neurotic.

We don't freeze it unless we accidentally buy too much... sometimes I buy a 5lb bag only to discover that Danny had bought one a week before. We have a very large deep freezer (not the one over our fridge) The faster an item freezes the smaller the ice crystals are and the less damage is done to the product. Large chest/upright deep freezers freeze things very quickly and take them to a very low temp. We will freeze the harrison's in 1 week servings. It spoils faster if frozen and thawed. We always taste and smell this to make sure it's still good. Freezing does kill some of the beneficial bacteria and reduce the potency of many of the vitamins in/on the pellets so we make sure to use our Nekton daily on their soft foods when they're eating harrisons that was frozen.

We also feed a really varied diet. Fresh veggies, beans and rice daily and fruit atleast a few times a week just not in large quantities. We also feed a pellet "trail mix" we take several bags of different pellets including Zupreem fruit, Roudybush, Zupreem organic, and a couple of others... Avizon I think is one we add one small bag of very high quality seed mix. We feed that about once a week as a special treat. It's got to be awful boring eating the same thing every day.

N&G, I go back and forth between the HP and the Lifetime. It depends on the season and the hormones. HP is higher in protein and I have found does not mix as well w/ a hormonal or neurotic bird. On the "off seasons" I will use the HP.

banned,

You are correct about the birds eating less once they have adjusted to the new pellet diet. I have never thought about it until you posted that statement. Ruby does eat a lot less then she used to. Dr. Harrison is actually my vet, though he sold his practice and only works part-time now. He told me to only offer food twice a day. He never explained why besides it aids to bird in being less wasteful; however, the point of the birds eating less makes sense now.

Thanks for all of the wonderful information. Getting the 5 lb bags at a time sounds more reasonable now, thanks. I'm going to start them all on HP and I'll keep the Macaw on it, as it's recommended for Macaws.

Another reason I've been reluctant to get Harrisons is because my vet tech told me that it's "pointless" to get organic pellets if you're going to feed the birds "store bought" veggies/fruit. She said that unless "you grow your own food in your backyard", that you would reverse the effectiveness of the organic pellets. Do you find this to be true as well?

I admit that I don't buy "organic" veggies and fruit. I buy "regular" food from the grocery store. BUT, if I'm going with Harrisons...I'm switching them over to pure organic, as Lisa (vet tech) makes a lot of sense. There's a great store w/in walking distance from my house...it's amazing the things they supply (I never knew that there were such things as "organic Almond Butter" and "Macadamian Butter"...they even have pure almond milk--great for baking things for the flock)...going organic just might be fun for the flock (The Too might think otherwise, as Almonds, Peanuts, Bread, etc are viewed as being evil )

Thanks again.

Both my birds eat HP harrisons, (TAG & G2). I pay 36 dollars for 5lbs and the a vets.

Wow banned, great article.

Yes, it IS very frustrating trying to give nothing but the best to our birds. As for cherries (my own favorite temperate climate fruit), in the last couple of years I've noticed we've been getting some from our fine neighbors to the north (usually BC), which I have been assuming (hoping!) are less pesticide-laden than ours. They are usually later in the season than ours. Also, Trader Joe's sells cherries in jars imported from Germany. They do add a little sucrose to the water (hardly noticeable), but I'll take a little sugar over pesticides/herbicides any day. banned, if you'd like to try a jar, I'll send you one, (and then perhaps you'd offer your evaluation here?).

To add to the info from banned's link, here are some clippings from my own lectures (on-line and in-class). My information does not come from "radical environmental groups" but from the CDC (U.S. gov.), Mayo Clinic, Physicians For Social Responsibility, the Women's Health Initiative (U.S. gov.), EPA (U.S. gov.) and my own readings of the peer-reviewed scientific literature. You will see some of the same chemicals mentioned in banned's article. I actually have links embedded, but they didn't come through here, so I'll try to put some at the end. The point of me adding all of this is that smaller organisms (such as our birds) are going to feel the effects sooner; we often feed our birds what we feed ourselves; the same kinds of problems have been seen all across the spectrum of vertebrate organisms, including ourselves and our birds.

MALE HORMONES AND SPERMATOGENESIS

For purposes of this class, all of the hormones involved in reproduction will be collectively called Reproductive Hormones. Some of these hormones also have other functions in the body that do not involve reproduction. One of the great mysteries of hormones is how the same hormone can have a variety of functions based upon which cell type or tissue it targets. Not only that, but the same hormone operates differently in different species! For example, prolactin in human females is involved in milk production. In birds (which do NOT nurse their young with milk), prolactin triggers the urge to migrate.

The word ?targets? is somewhat of a misnomer, because a cell or tissue is influenced by a hormone only if it has receptor sites for that hormone on its cell surfaces. Receptor sites and hormones work together in a lock and key fashion. It takes the right key in the lock to unlock a door and gain access to the room. There may be several ?close fits,? i.e. several keys may appear to fit into a lock, but the shape of the key has to be a near perfect match to turn the lock and thus gain access. In cells, the receptor sites are the locks, and the hormones are the keys. A hormone matching the correct receptor site will unlock an opening into the cell and gain access to the cell interior. The hormone then stimulates a specific portion of DNA to create a specific product; sometimes another hormone. Like the example I gave earlier of the female moth spewing pheromones that diffuse through the air, hormones diffuse throughout the body via the circulatory system. Blood, and everything in it, eventually reaches every cell in the body. If a hormone is present in the blood and the cells by which it passes do not have receptor sites for that hormone, the hormone passes on by. If a receptor site IS present, it welcomes the hormone into its embrace, so to speak.

IV. Factors Affecting Spermatogenesis
A. Heat
B. Radiation
C. Abstinence from sexual activity
D. Environmental Pollutants (dioxins AKA organochlorines, PCBs, pesticides such as DDT)** - act as "Endocrine Disruptors"
1. About 40 pesticides of all kinds, industrial chemicals, industrial byproducts, medical and municipal waste incineration
2. Sperm count in industrialized nations has decreased by 50% since WWII (and the ?Chemical Revolution?)
3. Increase in abnormal or non/low-motile sperm
4. Sperm absorb and metabolize such pollutants more easily than other cells, which can result in birth defects
5. Increase in incidence of cryptorchidism

E. Nature of Endocrine Disruptors (wildlife studies and rodent/primate lab studies)
1. The hormone-receptor complex interacts directly w/DNA to initiate specific gene products
2. An endocrine disruptor is an agent that intereferes with this normal sequence of events by interfering with normal hormone function (its synthesis, storage, release, secretion, transport, etc.)
3. Many of these pollutants are estrogen mimics
a) Recall estrogen causes cell division (proliferation)
b) Increase in testicular cancer in U.S. and Europe (ex. DES meta-analysis)
c) Increase in other reproductive tract cancers (breast, prostate)
d) Increased incidence of endometriosis (dioxin - in herbicides and pesticides)

4. Some block receptor sites from more potent endogenous hormones
5. Some are anti-androgenic (ex. the fungicide Vinclozolin, DDE)
a) Hypospadias (urinary outlet on underside of penis or in perineum), also often accompanied by a downward bowing of the penis called chordee.
(1) It can lead to difficulties achieving an erection
(2) Almost one per 100 males are born with hypospadias (Atlanta study)
b) Reduced testes size
c) Reduced accessory glands
d) Decreased sperm production
e) Feminization of organs (default is "female" in absence of androgen)
f) Alteration of 50/50 sex ratio in favor of females (PCBs, DDT)

6. Lead also associated w/testicular damage, decreased sperm count, abnormal sperm, low motility
7. Examples
a) Experiments exposing gull eggs w/DDT resulted in functional hermaphrodites
b) Male rats whose mothers were injected w/dioxins would not mate with females; instead moved into female-like mating position in the presence of males
(1) These same rats only produced half the normal amount of sperm
(2) Similar results with 3 species of gulls (induced ?homosexuality?) when eggs exposed
c) Female hamsters exposed in utero engaged in male behaviors including mounting females
d) Various populations of fish, birds, reptiles in contaminated environments that have undeveloped gonads, partial gonads, both sexes and many other physical defects

F. Recommendations to minimize exposure
1. Pay attention to fruit sources and seasonality; DDT etc. in off-season imported fruits
2. Wash fruits/veggies w/soap to remove waxed-in contaminants
3. Remove fat from fish and meat prior to cooking (toxic chemicals accumulate in fat)
4. Minimize consumption of butter, cheeses, cream, etc. (PCBs, dioxin, DDT found in milk)
5. Limit consumption of game fish (higher on food chain, chemicals more concentrated)
6. Keep own body fat low (so don?t accumulate as many toxins)
7. High fiber diet in women appears to prevent absorption of estrogenic substances

*** PCB?s: In transformer insulators (no longer manufactured in U.S., but obviously still around)
Dioxins: Used in paper bleaching, product of many manufacturing processes such as plastics, PVC, grain silo internal coating
DDT: Insecticide (breaks down to DDE, also toxic); no longer used in U.S. but persistent in environment, and used elsewhere
Bisphenol-A: In polycarbonate plastics, epoxy resins, flame retardants, coating inside food cans, dental sealants


Preparation for and Confirmation of Pregnancy
A. Planning Ahead- Birth control (family planning) and diagnostic tests give prospective parents the ability to plan ahead
1. Avoid teratogenics (things which cause birth defects) (terato = monster)
a. Early embryological development is extremely sensitive to chemicals/hormones
i. Embryo Images
ii. Hypospadias - malplacement of the urinary outlet of the penis
b. Known Teratogenics: Alcohol, smoke, tobacco products, environmental pollutants, X-rays, tetracycline, NOX, Accutane
c. Nicotine passes easily into milk, therefore, a smoking cessation program that involves nicotine patches or gum should be completed before attempting to get pregnant
d. Environmental Contaminants (Endocrine Disruptors) - brief overview
e. Several case studies and the most well known effects:
i. Herbicide "Atrazine" (and 3 other similar pesticides) in water is associated with:
a. High rates of low birth-weight babies (low birth-weight babies often require critical care and are more susceptible to health problems)
b. Increased rate of premature births
c. Increased growth retardation (fetus does not develop and grow at the normal rate)
d. Skeletal and mental defects
e. Learning disabilities
f. Shortened penises
ii. PCBs in Great Lakes Fish: mothers eating fish from the Great Lakes have babies with the following:
a. Low birth weight
b. Smaller skull circumferences (the skull houses the brain)
c. Cognitive (ability to learn, reason, and remember) defects
d. Developmental defects (mental or physical disabilities arising from abnormal development of the early embryo)
e. Motor (neuromuscular) defects
f. Link to source
iii. Organochlorines
a. Learning disabilities
b. Change in behavior, sexual response
c. Abnormal genital development
d. Immune System problems
e. Abnormal/retarded brain development
2. Immediately adjust nutritional needs (folic acid, vitamins, minerals,
etc.)
http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/hypospad.htm
http://www.csupomona.edu/%7Ecmbrady/cou ... isrpt.html
http://www.med.unc.edu/embryo_images/un ... s/akgs.htm

Interesting point Sunny. I usually use the Lifetime but when Buddy came on board, I went back to the HP for a while. Maybe this partly explains Mordecai's recent accelerated aggression.

Joe, is your vet saying to put the bowl (with Harrisons) in the cage for a certain amount of time twice a day? I just want to be sure I understand this... The suggestion is that you feed your birds the way we feed our overweight dog (X amt, twice a day)? I always make available the pellets. I feed fresh foods twice a day, removing the fresh food bowl after a certain amount of time (an hour or so) because obviously it will spoil, etc.
Obviously it's Dr Harrison who's saying this, but I hope you all will comment on this because it's not sitting well with me still. Shouldn't pellets always be available?

For a price comparison:
I pay for Harrison's LM 5 pounds is $24.90, 1 lb is $6.30, and 25 lbs is $114.80 (I never buy the 25 lb bags).

**I made a mistake the first time I posted- I pay $6.30 for 1 lb, not $5.30

Thank you! Okay, so I have to remove the bowls and only put them out twice a day. I'm a little nervous. I don't want my birds to think I'm starving them suddenly. And for the evening feeding, when they suggest you feed the fresh foods, should I mix pellets with the fresh foods or how should I do that? Because I want them to get their pellets- they eat their pellets and seem to shred their fresh foods, mostly. Also, 'Zilla doesn't eat much anyway- I replace his food because I worry about dust, not because he's actually emptied his bowl! If you have a bird that barely eats, should you still limit the eating times?

Oh, thank God. Okay, I am going to keep right on doing what I am doing then, because they look happy and this works so far. None of my birds is overweight either.
Whew. I take years off my life worrying about this stuff.